8. Finding your path to awakening and personal development with Chris Tomasso

Chris Tomasso 0:00

And my message to everyone is that nobody brokers your access to the infinite. We all have it, we all have it and we have it by our birthright. And the only reason we don't have it is if we have a story in our head that says we don't have it. And that is the most important work in my opinion, of our lives, is deconditioning. Because the ironic piece is that we are infinite already. And it's only us that keeps us away from that feeling. You know, and it's easy to like, demonize that part of yourself say like, that's my ego. I just gotta destroy my ego, right? But it's not about destroying. It's about accepting.

Rizwan Javaid 0:53

Hi, friends, welcome to another episode of the low fidelity podcast. I'm your host Rizwan Javaid. So my guest today is Chris Tommaso. Chris is a gamification consultant at the analysis group. He advises web three projects on white papers and play to earn economies as well as mental and physical wellness apps. He writes about finding consciousness in the age of exponential tech. Chris is also the co-host of the podcast reveal the game of life. In our conversation today, we talked about creativity, personal development, self-awareness, and the path to awakening. I'm excited to share our conversation today. So let's do it.

Chris Tomasso 1:46

Building in public sounds amazing. But then the dark side of it is, well, now you're only paying attention to what the crowd wants. If you have that mindset, right? If you just take it as like data, okay, this seems to be people like this. But also I like this, and I'm going to find a way to like, combine the two, then it's healthy, but it can easily be, you know, it's whatever people want. I'll talk about whatever you want, as long as it gets me clicks, you know, and that leads you down a bad rabbit hole. Yeah, I

Rizwan Javaid 2:14

think. Like, lately, I've been thinking about going, where I feel there is energy and what energizes me and you know, anything that I noticed and think about that, I feel like there's something behind there. I may not know that right away. But if I've noticed that, maybe it's my subconscious telling me okay, this I need to pay attention to, at least that's what I'm going to try and see how that goes. Because there's so much out there. And you know, it's hard to decide. But again, I think going to your point, like doing what you want to do, instead of being driven by, by numbers, or, you know, some something outside of you,

Chris Tomasso 2:54

right? But at the same time, if you don't use the numbers at all, yeah, then you're just kind of like plateauing. Like you're you're not seeing the opportunities in what you're doing of the things that you love that people really respond to. And I think one of the reason you you contacted me is the post I did on depression, right? Yeah. Yeah. For me, that's like something I've talked about for years, you know, it was part of my identity for a long time. And I got to the point where I could talk about it with people. And then I got to the point where I felt like I was kind of not beyond it, but I'd found a good equilibrium, a good relationship with it, and so that it was normal to talk about. So it didn't seem weird. So I was like, writing about it, like the way I usually talk about it. And people are like, Wow, thank you. It's so authentic and honest. And, and I didn't, I was like, No, this is just how I talk. I wasn't trying to be authentic and honest. It just, it just was what it was. Yeah. So that was an example of like, oh, I would have never known that had I not paid attention to what people care about. So I do think you have you, it's important to care about that if you want to grow as a person, and as a creative, but it can't be everything. There has to be this balance. And it's easy to kind of like go back and forth. Like I'll be whatever you want me to be or I don't care what anybody thinks. I'm just going to talk about thumbtacks This is my thumbtack channel. We're all talking about some

Rizwan Javaid 4:21

good points, dogs and Thumbtack. Right. Maybe, maybe put them together. Yeah. Cool. I know we're we've already started our conversation, but I wanted to welcome you to Fidelity podcast. Thank you. Yeah, it's, you know, we had a chat before and I was really energized and just the, you know, from your energy and from the information you shared, and you know, even your stories that you mentioned about you know, overcoming depression. And, you know, you Going through the the ship 3430 program. And yes, you're at 27, which is pretty cool. Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. I mean, you got so far. It's a challenge in itself.

Chris Tomasso 5:15

Yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. It actually wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. But I think that's a lot having to do with pre paving, like how I was going to experience it beforehand. And like thinking about that intentionally, because in the past, doing anything consistently for 30 days was hard. Yeah. In this case, this was the first time where it was, you know, there was definitely challenges, but the writing part was not hard. I'd say the writing and then not having people respond, that was definitely hard.

Rizwan Javaid 5:47

Yeah, I guess that's the numbers thing again, like, right, when you see others, you know, the comparison comes in like, Okay, why? Why is that person getting? You know, 100 100 likes in a few minutes? Yeah. But yeah, that's definitely can't go down that route. You know, it's more about sharing your story. And like you said, just whatever you feel like, like, the conversation you want to have, instead of, you know, let me see, what if, if, if I talk about this, do my numbers go up? Right. It's good to just focus on your craft and the focus of your writing, and because that's changing, no matter what, you know, no matter what other people say, you've probably experienced a change from your first essay to up to even up till now.

Chris Tomasso 6:44

Oh, definitely. Definitely. Huge, rapid, I mean, the thing about working to building anything in public or having this kind of audiences, you rapidly can get very quick feedback on what isn't, isn't working. And you can make changes, and you can learn a lot very quickly. And I think that's, like, that's really the difference between people who kind of take a challenge like this and just keep going on their path that they were on. And people who just like, shoot off, I think, I mean, as a person who has not shot off and gotten a bunch of Twitter, thrillers, I might be wrong. But you know, it's seeing what's working from other people. And then like integrating that and accepting, you know, what is working about what you're doing, whether it's, but there's so many different things that quote, work about writing, right? There's like the language, the words you use, there's the rhythm you use, there's the way it looks visually. There's the topics you're talking about. That's the one thing that people tend to focus on. There's like, the cadence of your writing, there's the emotions, how much emotion do you put in it? How much personal stuff do you put in it? Do you tell stories versus do process driven stuff? And like, all of those things are things you can kind of AB test in a sense? Sure, like, you can see, like, you know, my, my, you know, posts on depression got, you know, it was kind of a breakout metric. And then I'm like, well, is depression the thing? Or is it? Is it the topic that's important and resonating with people? Or is it that honesty? Is it talking about things that people don't usually talk about? Like, what is the pattern, right, and one data point does not make a pattern to maybe makes a pattern three than now it's stronger. So you have to just throw out I think, the thing I love about it, and what I'm going to take with me beyond this challenge is like you just have to throw out a lot of data points in the beginning to see what's working. And then you have to see what's in common with those things you've ever played the game set?

Rizwan Javaid 8:53

So no, I don't, I don't think so.

Chris Tomasso 8:56

Okay, well, it's it's somewhat hard to explain on a good day. So if you haven't played, but it's basically about pattern matching cards, you have like nine cards, and you're looking for sets of three cards that have certain things in common or certain things that are different. And that's basically what you're trying to do. I think when you're creating is you're looking for sets of patterns, as opposed to because it What's something that's easy to do is, is you have a data point, and then extrapolate a whole story based on that data point. You know, that would be like, Oh, depression is what people care about, great. Well, I'm gonna write a book on depression, it's going to be amazing. And, you know, like, here's all the chapters I'm going to do, I'm gonna spend a year and a half doing it. It's funny because you laugh, but this is literally the way I used to create. And I would super burn out on the process because I didn't actually know what was catching on with the audience. And sometimes I'd have no data besides my own inspiration. So I'd have no external data. And I would say I think this will be the valuable to people because it was valuable to me. So therefore, I'll do I'll write a book. So I wrote a book on World of Warcraft. Now, it teaches you real life skills. And I was like, well, people love World of Warcraft, and they love personal development. And so therefore, they'll love this book. But I didn't like really test it with anybody, you know, like I spent years writing it a year and a half writing it. And then it came out with it, I had no idea how to publish it, I had to now start getting people interested in the idea after, I just didn't care anymore. Like I just didn't want to write at all anything about that anymore. And now I had to start from square one marketing. And so I ended up never publishing it, because I just didn't want to publish it, and then have no one read it that that would have been such a powerful like feeling of failure. So that I just, I just couldn't handle. So on the other hand, had I had I understood this building and public concept. First, I would have started writing about it in these little bite sized essays, and then see what people liked. Do they like this idea? What about it? Do they like, Okay, what more Oh, people are asking me questions about this great, well, now I have an idea of what people are interested in. And then I could have potentially built, written a book still. Or I could have written a series of articles or going to a newsletter, and it could have, it could have been a million different things. That wasn't a book. I think, in my mind, I also thought a book means you're legitimate, like it's not legitimate unless you've written a whole book on it. And that was just a limiting belief is like, scope or ambition, make something legit make something worth doing. And I think that's, that's wrong.

Rizwan Javaid 11:48

Yeah, that those limiting beliefs, they show up all over the place, I know, especially for me, if I'm doing something, I have this imaginary perfect example that I have to meet, otherwise, it's not good. And that keeps you from actually creating or doing whatever you need to do. Getting that out of your head that there is no such thing as a perfect designer, perfect creator, perfect. Anything can free you up. And like you said, limiting beliefs, it takes away all those limits for you. And you're just free to create my way. And I just recently came to that realization, because I myself also before this whole built in public, you know, credo came out and you know, everybody understood it. It was you know, you work on something for a long time and then release it, then you hear crickets, and then you get discouraged. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, even it shows up in work as well, your limiting beliefs, you don't believe that you're a designer until you've reached a certain threshold. Yeah. And you and that threshold keeps moving. Because as you grow as you grow, there's always going to be something for you to learn and try to achieve. So that's a personal struggle I'm going through as well. Yeah, I know you're gamification consultant. Can you talk about how you came to that career and your journey?

Chris Tomasso 13:20

Yeah. So I read this book called Reality is Broken back in 2009, by Jane McGonigal. She's sort of like the godmother of gamification. It's kind of how I think of her. And have you read the book?

Rizwan Javaid 13:32

I think I did buy it, but I did not read it. Yeah, I remember watching her YouTube video, way back when.

Chris Tomasso 13:46

So so what I loved about the book was that, you know, she was talking about how much time people spend playing games, and that they don't have to, like motivate themselves to play games, right. And I came to gamification very much through a personal desire to create the life that I wanted. And then my thesis about that was, if I can simply understand my own motivation, and then hack it, so to speak, through gamification, then I can do anything, I can install any habit, I can become any person that I want to be, right, which is not inaccurate, but I think it misses some serious like layers to what it is to be a human and alive in this in this journey. The idea that we can simply just program our brains to do things is a bit short sighted. That being said, it's still very powerful. So I learned about it then. And I thought to myself, this is going to be really important in the future. And I don't know why I just I, I've always had these kinds of like, future knowings like reverberation from the future. I interpreted them as imagination. Like, I would have an act of imagination and I'd write stories sci fi story reasoned things about possibilities to happen in the future. This was one of those where I thought, wow, this is going to be important. And so I just passively got into it for a few years. And then I in, can't remember 2000, think 16 or 17. Sometime around there, I started doing personal gamification for people. So I started being like a life coach, but I'll also build you a game. So like you tell me what you want to do. Maybe it's, you know, exercise more, I worked with a guy who did that, and actually helped him, like go from not working out at all to working out like 60 times in the course of us working together. And part of that was just understanding what motivated him and then building a game. So it made it fun, and then playing it with him. And I say building a game, it was very analog, like spreadsheets and text messages and stuff is very just experimenting, right? And from that, I started realizing that for myself, like, this is fun. But what I really want to do is business gamification, I want to work on apps and work on bigger, more complex problems. Also, there's going to be more money in that I would assume, than personal unless you're working with like, celebrities or something.

So then I start doing research, because I'm like, Who am I, I'm just a guy who has an idea. I've not never had a startup or anything, right? So definitely this like impostor syndrome of who am I to do this. And I found the autolysis group, they were they were posting blogs that had been, you know, actually going for a few years already. But they were expanding, they were looking for more people. And I read what they did in their, their UK child, the guy who invented the analysis framework, it was so dead on he took behavioral science and put it in a very actionable understanding way around what he calls the eight core drives of human motivation. And I just, it was one of those things where I just keyed into it. And I thought to myself, like I could have written this had I spent as much time as he had on the subject. But I didn't have to, like I was coming from this place of I must do this myself did this doesn't exist. So I have to create it. And I realized then No, actually, these guys have already created it. And I can just learn from them. So I got the book I free. You know, he has a book called actionable gamification. I read the book, I read through his blog, and I just contacted them and said, Hey, I want to work for you guys. And this is why I did experiential learning. I learned that developed like Silicon Valley startups in, in the Bay Area, which was super fun. I had done this personal gamification thing, I've been obsessed with video games, since I was a child, like, there was a lot of reasons that I thought that I would be good at the job. And then they had me do kind of like, a sort of a try out, you know, assignment that was like a mock assignment. And then I did that for them. And then they said, you know, come aboard, like, let's check this out. And autolysis is very different than most companies. Like, it's basically a network of freelancers who kind of come together with a sort of company like culture, where we have like, remote meetings, but it's all remote. And, you know, it's very apprenticeship based. So you're learning from people, and they cite, you know, give you a buddy or mentor, and then you just learn as much as you can. And every other job that I've had before this, I would almost always hit the ceiling of what the knowledge required for the job was within like, a year, year and a half, you know, I would quit the jobs because I would say to myself, either I'm gonna own this company, or I'm bored. And I don't want to own it. Because I don't want to do this, whatever it is, like food service, or, you know, some random thing. This gamification is not like that there is an endless amount of knowledge. There's like endless books you can read. There's, like I said, a whole realm of behavioral science, which is itself huge. Then there's like psychology and UX. And, you know, there's the economics now, especially with gamification in web three, and where it intersects, there's a lot of like, the economics has to be really strong, otherwise, you're creating economies that will bankrupt companies, right? So there's just so much to it. And that was like a playground of learning about all of these things. And at the same time, for the very first time in a job, I felt like, I was not special because gamification is what everybody else did and knew. And I had to prove myself prove my worth of being there. And so for the first like, two years, I would say, I felt like I was gonna get fired at any second because I because both because it was hard and learning it is hard. But also because I had a story in my head of I'm not good enough for this work, and who am I to do this and it No, people are paying me a lot of money. Like, why should they listen to me like that, that kind of stuff, we're paying us a lot of money. So. But I would say that in the recent couple of years, there were a few things that kind of set me apart, which, if somebody's wanting to get set apart in the companies that they're working in, one of the major things they can practice is soft skills. So facilitation skills, listening, active listening, anything that's on the level of like sales or persuasion, like those are kind of like dirty words, but they have in them, like very important skills, of rapport building and this kind of stuff. And I learned that from the experiential learning jobs that I had I learned about facilitation and standing in a group of people and not talking and saying, Alright, Could you say more about that, and then holding space, and like those, like little things like that started to set me apart. And so I became really good at client management, as well as understanding how to run projects and that kind of stuff. And so now actually, like, I kind of mentor other people, in client management, communication skills, and that kind of, and those kinds of things. And I've also written about that during the ship 30 for 30.

And at the same time, you know, you're asking about the, the reveal the game of life, live experience in the podcasts that I have, you know, that's very much in this, like more woowoo world of like spirituality and life, what is reality and that kind of stuff, you would think that would have no place in the business world, in a world of we want to engage our users. But you would be surprised at how many clients I've talked to, that are like, with, with me on that level of consciousness. And I think that's becoming more and more important, because now I see that in the world, technology is accelerating to such a vast degree, that if we don't do our own spiritual work, it'll basically get ahead of us. And we will no longer be sovereign beings. So I think that's a really important thing. And we've seen that with the documentary, The Social Network. And other work around this, like the metaverse and web three is all like, right now we have this chance to define what kind of world are we going to live in. And so more and more of my works is around that, what I write about what I, you know, consult on and whatnot, and I, that's a far cry from where I started with helping people, you know, get dates,

Rizwan Javaid 22:30

nice. You had the vision to know that this is going to be big. And I when I was looking at gamification, I think this was in 2010. You know, it just became a buzzword at that time. There was, you know, everybody was doing gamification, but then, but I guess now it settled down, it's become more mainstream, that's a whole universe in itself. Like you said, there's no way one person can know all that information or, you know, keep you challenged. And I'll keep you motivated to keep learning because we're learning new things about ourselves and the brain. So, you know, the possibilities are limitless. And you're talking about web three, and opens up a whole nother world of application of gamification within that setting.

Chris Tomasso 23:20

Yeah, so I said, think about gamification is it started as a gimmick like you were saying, it's a buzzword, people using points, badges and leaderboards? And you guys book is called actionable gamification, beyond points, badges and leaderboards. So a lot of what we've been doing in autolysis, is trying to educate people about what game of what good gamification is. And it's all those things that I mentioned are all focused on extrinsic motivators, which are, by definition, short term, and have diminishing returns. So there's these dynamics that if you try to apply them into your system, will potentially not get the results you want, because you're not focusing on what we call the intrinsic or whitehat motivation. So that's like, we've been beating that drum for eight years, or whatever. And so gamification went from gimmick, because, of course, it did to, you know, basically funding one of the most like, income generating sectors of society, to now it's becoming a pillar of philosophy for the creation of a new internet. So it's becoming more and more part of the very fabric of our reality, which is pretty wild to see, like, just in the last year, we've gone, our clients have gone from people who are wanting to create, you know, health, health and wellness apps, to clients saying, like, we're going to create a whole new world economy and virtual land and the metaverse and this and that, and, you know, this is now possible with the technology. And I think it's really important that we consider the implications of our actions so that we don't create there's so many externalities, you know, if you Who? The people creating Facebook or Instagram? weren't thinking about the people who now are feeling more depressed? Because they're using their their app? Yeah. So, you know, now that we know we've had this kind of iteration of a maturation of a technology cycle. Now we say, okay, but now that we know we have to make decisions, are we going to keep doing the same thing? Are we going to keep optimizing for engagement and people on screens? Or what are we going to do? Right? Is that what we want for the future of the planet? And so like, these are, on the one hand, gamification feels like a very kind of esoteric discipline, like the the work that we do is oftentimes design or just consulting. And so it's very ephemeral. What we do is what it seems, and at the same time, it feels core to like very important decisions that are being made in society.

Rizwan Javaid 25:55

So do you think you're a futurist? Or is that to something that shows up as you're going about your day?

Chris Tomasso 26:03

So I think of Futurism is like pattern recognition, more than anything, I wouldn't say I have any formal skills in it. Interestingly enough, Jane McGonigal works for the Institute for the Future. And she's like, has all the forecasting skills I'm very curious about, like honing the skills with mental model, honing the impulse or talent or whatever, with mental models. It's weird, because it's just, I just get a hit on this thing is important. And this is why or I see a pattern developing and think, Okay, this is where it's gonna go. But the thing is, is that has to be calibrated with reality. So the problem, so I'll give you an example of a prediction that didn't work out for me back in, I think, is 2004. There was this company, this multilevel marketing company that was selling video phones. And I was like, oh, video phones are the future. And like, it was multilevel marketing, right? So you have to give them money, first batch of phones, and then you're calling people to try to sell them to them and stuff. And that was not it didn't work, right. People didn't care. And that didn't catch on. Because eventually, a whole technology of smartphones just kind of made that obsolete. It's like the whole context around that technology change. So this is happening more and more where you make prediction, but then the context changes. And now your prediction is obsolete. And so it's really about recalibrating that and being humble with reality, no matter how good the prediction is, you can't account for all possibilities. And something might just show up and totally, yeah, make that obsolete. And so I tried to think of like bigger trends that are happening, right? Like, for example, the trend of remote working that was happening before COVID hit. But now it's been accelerated same as the trend of streaming at home and not going to the movie theaters. And therefore the I went to film school. So I'm like, really into film business and stuff as well. There's this trend of this massive polarization between very expensive movies and very cheap movies. And now there's no middle ground, right? And that trend is likely to keep going until it breaks, for example, because that's, in general, that's kind of how these work. In fact, I would say that anybody who's curious about kind of creating more awareness around pattern matching to trend to anticipate the future, because it's a very valuable skill I found in the right context, I would read this book called systems thinking a primer by Danella. H Meadows. I don't know if you've heard of that. But it teaches you to think about everything in terms of systems. And a system is simply an interrelationship between objects, it's, but it's thinking about the relationship and dynamics of these things. So, you know, I was privileged to, you know, I was homeschooled at a very young age. And so I walked outside the context of a school like a public school, which feels like it's the only thing that exists the only way for rule, you know, the only game and you step outside, you go No way. This is just an arbitrary structure and a system that's like propping up the rest of society. Because if you go to school, then you get a diploma and then you can get a job, right? And that's all breaking apart as well. Right? There's all these different trends that are being accelerated. So I actually think that being more of a futurist is more important than ever, because the trends we see are now happening much faster than they used to. There's this, this joke of in this movie Southland Tales, where they say that scientists are now predicting that the future is going to be far more futuristic than they initially predicted. And it's like a joke, but it's also what's happening right like yeah, You know, do you think the metaverse is going to be around in five years? Like five years feels like really short? Yeah, right.

Rizwan Javaid 30:08

Now, no, yeah. I mean, you talked about working from home and remote work. You know, before it was just the it was, you didn't talk about it? And yeah, it was. It wasn't approved. There wasn't, companies did not want to do it. And there were a couple of few companies out there that were doing it. But it seemed impossible. Like, there was no way a corporation would change so much. Yeah. And, you know, and then now, it's almost the opposite. Like, now, nobody wants to go in and, like, and it's hard. I mean, for me, it would be hard to imagine that as a, you know, if I'm thinking about the future, yeah. You know, something, something big happens, a shift happens, and then this whole trend changes on its head. Yeah, it's hard to predict it. But I guess, if you think about, if you see, okay, it's a pandemic, yeah, things have to change because of it. So maybe that's maybe, you know, you start building up your muscles of thinking like that, and then you can see, okay, you know, now that we're in endemic, you know, there's going to be more things that will change. Right, so. So I guess it's a muscle that you have to continually practice

Chris Tomasso 31:32

to make an extremely long story short, yes, it's something you have to practice. And it's, and it's, for me, it was just kind of an intuitive feeling first, and then it becomes like an awareness. Right. And I think, honestly, I think this is hard if you're not willing to look at your own storytelling and yourself, because your brain is the it's the, it's the kind of gate to understanding. And so if your brain is got a story that's blocking you from feeling, seeing things accurately, then, you know, you're you're going to make a wrongful prediction. Right. And, and a lot of people, that's when I talk about spiritual doing spiritual work, that's really what I mean is becoming aware of what is the story that you're creating, in your mind from the data you're experiencing, but from the reality you're experiencing, and I think that's so essential, it's such an essential skill, you can't really help people unless you like, know what your own shit is,

Rizwan Javaid 32:36

totally agree with you, because I'm at that point of coming into awareness that the story has been playing in my head over and over again, it's been, and I can see how it has helped me back. And so I think it can help. It helps everybody to understand how this works, what you can do to overcome it, and, you know, just all you need is a shift in your thinking, and the whole world opens up to you. It's not like you have to go buy something and you spend a million dollars. It's just a, it's a change in perspective. And yeah, right. Yeah, that's, that's a realization I have come to recently, but just a few months ago, I was on the opposite spectrum. And, you know, like, being almost like hostage to the thoughts, and

Chris Tomasso 33:28

what would you change it perspective?

Rizwan Javaid 33:30

Well, I've been working with a coach to, to kind of identify some of these limiting beliefs and how they hold you back, you know, the layers that we put on and how we hide underneath that. And so he's kind of helped me identify these things, these things that show up in my work. And so now that I'm trying to get rid of them, I can see how my work is improving how I'm showing up better, I'm leaning in. I respect my my viewpoints instead of thinking, you know, who I might say something, you know, like, the imposter syndrome that you get when you meet, say, new people. Yeah, that that's going away slowly, but it's a process and you know, it, maybe it just takes somebody else to guide you through that, too. I've had it for my whole life. You know, it's hard to get rid of it on your own. I

Chris Tomasso 34:34

think of myself as like a very self aware person. And that's an identity, right, which has its own stories or whatever. But I'm terrible at my own stories. It's so much easier to get somebody else to say, hey, this doesn't. Yeah, like you can easily see in someone else, right? Yeah, exactly. Whereas it's so hard to see it in yourself, especially if it's not something you want to look at. If that story is keeping you safe, or feeling like you're safe from something, yeah, you're like this, this reminded me of I didn't used to take feedback well at all. I wanted to be perfect the first time and I wanted the only feedback to be like, Wow, your stuff is amazing. And it needs no change. Right? And so I either would never finish something because then no one could give me feedback if I don't actually share it. Or whenever they would give me feedback, it would be this like white knuckle experience, where I would just like, I would feel like a total failure if they had anything to say that was negative. That was because there was a story that I was telling myself is like, I'm a genius, I make only amazing stuff. If I'm not a genius, then I'm worthless, right or something, something like that, like I'm either a genius or a failure, and there's no in between. And it's and it's very absolute. When I started being able to accept more feedback from people, everything got easier. Like I didn't have to white knuckle my way through listening to people, for one, and then two, like, I got better at the thing, because that was helpful, usually. Right? So like, and that's like such a, you know, to your point, you were talking about a tiny shift makes all the difference?

Rizwan Javaid 36:23

Did you come to that realization yourself? Or how did you

Chris Tomasso 36:27

get a mentor who I was lucky enough that for a time I worked at a company where I filled vending machines, and the my, the owner of the company was a former sales manager at a Toyota dealership. And so he had like, all of this, like NLP, like sales training, you know, deconditioning stuff in his head. And I didn't know that. So we were driving in the truck. And he's like, That's interesting that you say that? What do you mean, you know, what, if you thought about it this way, or like, you would start like, kind of working on me. And then what would happen is he would go too hard. And I would like freeze, not while I was driving, but like, I would just be like, you know, oh, my god, like, I'm not ready to understand this about myself. And you're like, Alright, we're gonna, we're gonna back off. But basically, he like Mr. Miyagi me. While we were, we were driving around, and I got to the point where I wanted it. Because I was like, seeing the difference. In my life, I've seen the difference in the quality of my relationships, just in the little like, changes. He was helping me with that. I was like, Yes, I want it go hard, like, you know, and then I became like, A, for my early 20s. I was like a personal development book junkie. So I would just read lots and lots of books on personal development. I just like look for the patterns. And then I would try to apply them and they wouldn't work. Because I was interpreting through my stories, right, which I wasn't looking at. And then in my mid 20s, I became obsessed with that work with just like, how much can I learn about how I tick? And then what how can I open that up? How can I get more clarity, what's wrong, what's what's what's not working. And then as I went along, I realized, like, Oh, I'm not accessing emotions, like, that's what's wrong, is I'm not even letting myself feel anything. You know. And that was a whole journey in itself. And then there's the spiritual piece of, oh, I'm not even like listening to my intuition. I'm just dumping it down with logic, or I'm not looking at my stories. And so it becomes this, like, constantly like peeling back the layers. But for me, I'm particularly obsessed with it, like I'm particularly obsessed with. Because I know that what I want the life that I want, is on the other side of letting go of whatever needs to be let go, the energy, the stories, the ways of thinking, and used to the story tells you, you know, stories that we're all deconditioning from in society is like, go to school, get a job, and there's work hard work harder than everybody else, hustle, and then be happy, right? disconnected from the system. And all of these stories are like falling apart in front of us, right? And we're and people are like living examples of these things. I know that the freedom and joy that I want is on the other side of this work, and so I so it's so I just do it, like as much as I can. And I bring it to everything I do, because in my head, there's not like, there's like creative work and there's spiritual work. It's like all spiritual work. Yeah. Because spiritual work is really just investigating the relationship you have with things.

Rizwan Javaid 39:41

Yeah. And there's no, like there's no boundary between your creative work and spiritual or even your regular work. Everything is meshed together. So if you unblock yourself, it's going to pay off in all parts of your life. Right, right. You know, like It solves a lot of problems. And it's funny that you said, Yeah, I want more of this. Like, once you get that taste that, like, this is what I want. I actually messaged him, I coached this morning and I said, I want to dive into this. This part, I want to go into that the shadow shadow. Right? Like, I mean, I want to, like really know, because I've seen I've gotten a taste of how freeing it is. Yeah. So why not just, you know, go all and like you said, the possibilities. And the potential on the other side is this amazing? Like, that's where we want to go. That's our vision. Now, we're not going to hold ourselves back, because we had, we don't have those stories anymore. So now the field is open. And I wish it had happened earlier in my life. This is, you know, this is, this is the way it is. And this is opportunity and making the best use of it now. And so that I so yeah, I mean, there's definitely commonalities in our story. And yeah, seems like, you kind of need somebody to help you get to that point.

Chris Tomasso 41:17

I've had so many mentors that like I just came to, and I didn't know what I was even looking for, you know, and they, they knew that I there was a little piece that I needed to work on. And then they were there. And, you know, this journey is it's not a solo journey. As much as we feel alone. It's a collective journey of awakening. That's happening right now, in so many different people in so many different ways. It used to be a lonely journey, I would say that. If you if I were to put a date on it, I say when I was 15, ironically, the year I got diagnosed with clinical depression. I felt like I woke up as though reality was a dream. And I was like, something's like this is reality is not what I think it is. But I also have no idea what to do with that feeling. Because it wasn't like, okay, great, then I'll do XYZ, like, it's like, does anybody else feel this way? Like, I don't know, you know, I don't know what to do. It can be very isolating, to have that experience to feel like you're going through life. And you have to hide a part of yourself, because it's too weird for the rest of the world. And yet, that part of yourself is like the essential part of yourself is like the essential way that you interact and think about reality. And so I learned how to be the person that other people wanted me to be, so that I could be safe. And at the same time, I kept that peace of myself like outside of the work that I do, you know, because again, the work that I was doing was like flipping burgers or whatever, you know, and who cares about what you think about the nature of reality when you're just have to get a burger flit. True. But now, there's so much more of this happening. And that's why it's one reason why I have a podcast is because it's about amplifying the message, the signal. And having more people come and say yes, I felt that too. I had some kind of similar thing where like, I had experiences I can't explain. You know, maybe I spoke to if I believe in God, maybe I spoke to God, maybe, maybe you know, something happened. And I just like, let it go. Because society tells you that that's not the thing to think about, right? There's only these ways of thinking about spirituality that you can do. And my message to everyone is that nobody brokers your access to the infinite. You, we all have it, we all have it, and we have it by our birthright. And the only reason we don't have it is if we have a story in our head that says we don't have it. And that that is the most important work in my opinion of, of our lives is deconditioning. Because the ironic piece is that we are infinite already. And it's only us that keeps us away from that feeling. You know, and it's easy to like, demonize that part of yourself, say like, that's my ego, I just gotta destroy my ego, right? But it's not about destroying. It's about accepting. And there's so many modalities that do that, like you're talking about with your life coach. I can't do it through law of attraction. Gamification was really trying to get me to that place of like, if I can just install these ways of being in my head and make myself addicted to making my life better, then then I will be safe or free or joy for whatever it is.

Rizwan Javaid 44:51

It's pretty pretty cool to see that we're on similar journeys and yeah, definitely gotta check out the podcast and you know, soak up all the knowledge there.

Chris Tomasso 45:02

Oh, yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, well, and again, it's really just you already have it. So it's just us, like, remind, it's like us doing, you were just bringing awareness to what's going on with us as a way to remind you that you can do that, too, that anybody can do it anytime. You know, it's sometimes you need permission, like a person needs permission. So that's why it's good to have a coach or to a lot of times, you know, with, you know, with money specifically, like there's this energetic exchange that needs to happen, because money is just energy. And so when you invest money into your spiritual path, you develop faster. One thing that kept me stuck for a long time is this feeling like I didn't have enough I didn't I, I was in lack. And so I would, you know, I would try to get information for free, I would try to, like, Pirate it or find the person at work for them, like, you know, work trade. And that kept me at a level of, I don't have enough in myself, I'm not that I don't have enough value in myself. To get this information. I have to like, find some way to like, scrappily, get it and then I make being scrappy, part of my identity. This is kind of like the millennial wound in a way. Because as millennials, do you identify as a millennial? No, no, no. Okay. So millennials, I'm like an old millennial. I'm an analog childhood, digital adulthood. Millennial. The millennial kind of story is, we believed life would be one way, and then chaos. And now it's up to us to kind of like pick up the pieces and like construct our life from the broken systems that didn't support us. Right. And on the one hand, that's terrifying, because you're no longer safe. But on the other hand, it's free, because now we get to choose what kind of life we want to

Rizwan Javaid 47:00

live. Yeah, so there's definitely a big opportunity there. Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, just on being on Twitter, there's a lot of conversations around this as well. But, but there's some that are really deep, like, I mean, another level. And I tried to follow those conversations, but it's difficult. Because maybe it just, I'm not there at the at that level yet. But I can see hints of understanding what what they're talking about. But, ya know, it's definitely freeing, and it can help you in your career, especially, you know, as a creative, you don't have to worry about those things that hold you back, you know, like imposter syndrome. And it's not like, it goes away, but, you know, you manage it better. Right? And, you know, the doubt, the fears and the, you know, comparisons and everything that comes with that. And so, you know, do you have any, like suggestions of how you can become more self aware, besides from, you know, having a mentor what any activities you can do?

Chris Tomasso 48:14

Definitely. I mean, journaling is like, the first most obvious step. And it's whatever journaling practice works for you that allows you to kind of like, reflect on yourself. I think, one of the things that, that has been powerful for me, is, you know, obstacles we think of is like, it's the way that we it gets in the way of us getting to what we want to do. And so a way to work with that better is to recognize that the obstacle exists, because it's a reflection of your story, right? It's a reflection of what you're putting out into the universe, for lack of a better word. And journaling about that, what does this mean, to me? What is the pattern? It's becoming aware of the patterns in your life that have happened over and over again, because anything that is cyclical, it means there's something going on in you that is unresolved. There's something going on, there's an emotion, there's that usually it's like multiple levels, right? There's the spiritual level, there's emotional level, there's the mental level. And a lot of times people try to get clarity first on the emotional level. And that's not how this works. You have to let the emotion come out, and not without judging it. And then you get the clarity. Okay, right. So while I'll give you an example, one of the things that has been triggering me a lot during this Twitter challenge, is my shadow of visibility. And I think you've maybe saw as a word about that. The shadow of visibility The is, you know, this idea that nobody cares what I write, nobody sees me, I can't really be myself because then people won't accept me like, those are the kind of like the stories that are in there. And when I interact when I write that, then I say, Well, what does this mean? Like basically digging into what is the relationship between me and people and me and art and that kind of stuff. And yesterday, actually, I had this experience, whereas getting a lot of anger, because what will happen is, I'm not sure if this has happened to you before whether this is only me kind of thing. But I get these doppelgangers. So I get somebody, when I'm start heading towards a goal, I start to see people in my reality who are like me, but they're further along, and they seem to be doing so effortlessly. And so it feels like and that can be really scary, especially when you're creating like a business or a niche or something. And you're like, somebody already has my niche, somebody already is better than me at what I'm doing. Now, how can I do that? And that triggers me a lot. Because then I think, well, what's the point of doing the thing that I'm doing, because they've already done it, right. And that activated a lot of anger. And I basically, like, did some I was gonna sound weird, but I started dancing. Like, I started moving my hips, like listening to music, and just like trying to get the energy to be in my body, as opposed to in my head. And so I was doing that as I was moving. And a lot of anger came out. And I just like expressed it. So something where you can just get emotions out. Because if you're stuck, especially, it's usually because they're stuck energy, which means that physical motion moving your body is going to help get it out. Right. So maybe running or swimming, or biking or five martial arts, like, you know,

Rizwan Javaid 52:06

like, that's why I like running maybe, yeah, because it just gets your energy out, and you're ready for the day, or I usually run in the morning. And, yeah, but you were saying,

Chris Tomasso 52:19

especially with creative work, right? Like, like we're so in our heads, and we have to rely on our heads so much to make to make decisions, like our livelihood is based on how well we can like come up with and construct ideas, and then communicate them in some way. So that takes us out of our body. So so as a person a, I'm a recovering overthinker, a person who identified as a child as a smart kid. And my entire value was based around intelligence, I'm realizing more and more that to be a full integrated human, like, the mind is only a very small piece. It's a very cool piece to play with. But it is not the thing, that's not the main leverage point for doing this work. So I, I danced of it, I did some angry dancing. And then and then I got, basically I got the energy out. And then in that I had clarity. And the clarity came to me and said, Oh, you're but you're you're you're getting triggered about being visible, because you're not seeing yourself. Oh, wow. Because if I was to see myself the way that I truly want to be. That's like very confronting and terrifying, because who I want to be is big is, you know, had big dreams is seems very unlikely the person I am today. And so I've been, you know, tried to be happy with seeing myself as the smaller piece in the context. Like I'm like, Oh, I'm a great writer of Twitter threads. And it's like, but that's not really activating my soul, you know, is that identity? And so that was the intuition I got. So to go back to your question with actionable is how do you get in, in touch with this is writing to yourself. Also, depending on your spiritual practice, writing to spirit, or writing to universe, God, whatever. And then setting your thoughts aside and just letting the answers come to you. Another one is being in nature. So I take barefoot walks pretty often, and just connect to the ground. It's all these like very hippie sounding things. And the reason why is because our society is dominated by people who are identified with their mind. Sure, and in a world identify with your mind. It's like what what's the logical reason to get barefoot and walk in the grass? Yeah, it's connecting back to the earth and the roots

Rizwan Javaid 54:56

and stuff. So yeah, no, that's definitely a great way Yeah, yeah, I know that's helped me. Yeah, a lot of journaling and mourning pages and just Yeah, being alone with yourself and writing. You know, because you can think about what you've done or what you think about and what's, you know, that anxiety that you feel about a meeting that's coming up? And you know, why is that? And so you can kind of dig into it. Yeah, and explore it and see what keeps coming up. And so it's not a, you know, you won't get results right away. But you have to get into that mode of seeking and understanding because it takes time to understand ourselves, you know, yeah, we've been alive for some

Chris Tomasso 55:44

time, probably. Yeah.

Rizwan Javaid 55:48

And, and one thing I've I've noticed that has helped me is also meditating, and understanding, you know, your thoughts and feelings and emotions and how they are not, you know, they're not you, you're not. So you don't fall into those stories and fallen trap and get trapped into those. You can see, okay, a thought comes and it fizzles out and it goes away. And so why be stuck in that thought? And? Yeah, so there's a lot of,

Chris Tomasso 56:26

yeah, that's great. I mean, meditation has been difficult for me in the past. So I definitely recommend that if you can do it, or anything that is meditative anything, obviously, like, leave your phone at home, go into nature, or meditate something that's like disconnecting you from the world of information? Because then you can, like you said, Be alone in your thoughts. And I think that's important. And I also want to say that, you know, if, if you're listening to this, and any of this is resonating with you, if you're like yeah, these guys are talking since that's great, awesome. And you just ask for it, you set the intention, I want to understand myself more, I want to know what my spirit wants, what my soul wants, I want to know what is blocking me, I want to understand what I have clarity. And if you set that intention, and then you can you will be answered, you will be answered, the answer is going to come in a way that you aren't going to expect because that's how it works. It's if it came in the way you expect, you probably would already know the answer. You know, so something's going to happen that's like, Oh, not this, this thing is getting in my way. And usually the thing that's getting in your way is holding the answer that you're seeking. So that's, and it will happen and happens automatically. Because this is this is the game of life. You know, my my program is called reveal the game of life, my podcast, as well as the transformational game play. And that the thing is, is like we didn't invent this, we're just describing what's happening. You know, and and this is what's happening in our reality. And the only reason your reality seems to not make sense, is because you haven't been open to the patterns and the ways in which it's communicating with you. And that's fine. No judgement, because it's easy to get caught up in our mind and the story is created. But yeah, if you if you ask it will be answered.

Rizwan Javaid 58:38

Yeah, yeah, you have to take, you have to take the first step. And you have to, you know, you have to go through that journey as well. So you have to make that intention. And as you work towards that, everything starts making sense. And you can have, you're going to have the joy and the opportunities that you see other people have as well. It's, I mean, it's whatever your your goals or whatever your you want to achieve. It is available for you. It's just you have to make that choice to or to go get it.

Chris Tomasso 59:16

Yeah, your creative work is one of the most potent forces. Like it's one of the most potent expressions of the most potent forces you have access to. So if you're called to be a creator already, then this is simply deepening that and you'll find that you know, I used to, I used to think a lot make money, or I'll create some passive income, and then I'll be a creator or then I'll do this thing or that thing. But the thing is, is the money comes as a result of walking the spiritual path, which probably involves creativity if you're already a creative creator. So it's, it's it's more important Do you think even if it doesn't feel like it's like making you money, you know, if you're if you're a creator on the side, for example, if your work has to do with creativity, then it's easy to over focus on your work. And not let yourself be creative in other ways, because it doesn't feel like a good use of your time, quote, unquote. But I will tell you from experience like that will constrict your, your access to feeling good, to abundance to all of that,

Rizwan Javaid 1:00:31

what you're saying is explore whatever avenues come your way, instead of just sticking to one area of creativity.

Chris Tomasso 1:00:39

Yeah, I mean, whatever you feel called to do, I mean, when you were a kid, you probably just like, got excited about something, and then did it like we can do that. And in fact, that's what allows us to experience this joy and flow. It's just back to the story creating, again, the story of why am I doing this? How does it affect? What's my niche? What's the bigger business that I'm building? How is this fit, right? Because we believe that reality is based on cause and effect. But the thing is, is the cause and effect, things that happen are based on a story we create later. Okay? It's not something that you can predict forward by saying, Well, if I do this thing, then this thing will definitely happen. Because there's a million other ways in which it could go that you're just not aware of. And so my, so the vending machine, this is a great example. You know, I did vending for five years, why? It's totally not something I was interested in, I did it because I needed money. And it was a job, and there was a family friend on the business. And then I just kept doing it, because I couldn't find anything else that that and I was trying to do creative work on the side, but it's hard. And for years after that, I was like, Why did I do that? Was that just a waste of like five years of my life? And then last year, a guy contacted us and said, Hey, I want I want to do gamification for my vending company. In India. Do you have anybody who knows both gamification and vending? Like, it's like, you don't know what you're looking at? While you're learning it? It only makes sense later, the patterns start to make sense after you've been living them. So yeah, that's,

Rizwan Javaid 1:02:30

that's, that's so true. Because just today, I was thinking, you know, I started this podcast, and as you know, the first few episodes, yeah, I was, I used to dread speaking to people, and just like, you know, new people, how am I going to, you know, how am I going to feel this, the air? And what am I going to ask, and, you know, just a lot of anxiety. But now, as I've gone through this, and few episodes, I'm almost like, changing my perspective and realizing that I actually love to speak to people now. And easier and easier. But I wouldn't have happened if I hadn't started this journey or gone on this path of creating this podcast. And now, and it shows up in my work, now I'm more, I can speak easily with clients, and I'm not intimidated by you know, the, the, you know, the executives and, you know, other people. And so, to your point that as you go through this path, it changes you and go and but you don't know that that's going to happen before you take that those steps.

Chris Tomasso 1:03:44

Yeah, I mean, I talked about that book that I wrote about World of Warcraft earlier in the episode, that actually got me two different jobs, both the job at the experiential learning company, and the job as a gamification consultant. I mean, not only that, but that really set me apart. They're both people interviewing me were like, Whoa, you're going a whole book on like, social dynamics of video game players, and like, how you can learn about that and learn about yourself like, wow, that's interesting. And I thought at the time when I was writing it, like, Oh, this is gonna make me millions of dollars, like, this is gonna be the next huge this is gonna be like The Four Hour Workweek people be like this genius writer, you know, hit the Zeitgeist and then that will be my claim to fame, then I can go do what I really want to do creatively, right. And none of that happened. There was just a stepping stone. So you don't know what your stepping stone is to until later. So you might as well do what you love to do. Instead of doing what you think you need to do to succeed.

Rizwan Javaid 1:04:49

It sounds simple, but that's a completely different way of thinking, you know, instead of thinking what others expect me to be doing and what I right to do two different things. And that's where you, the more self aware you are, the more you understand what you want to do, the more you're connected to what your goals are or your purposes. I mean, the easier comes out but not falling into that trap of what is expected of me what I should be doing, because I'm this and you know, or I want to be this, so until then I cannot do that. Or, you know, all those stories that come into play.

Chris Tomasso 1:05:31

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's so much. There's so much like education about there are so many people saying, like, follow my steps. And I did this, this and this. And I, you know, back in my personal development book reading phase, I tried these things. And I was like, this doesn't work for me, why not? Am I broken? That's what I thought at the time. But instead, I was like, No, this is just this person's version. Like, what works for you is totally different than what works for other people.

Rizwan Javaid 1:06:01

Yeah, I think that I saw somewhere on somebody's tweet that at the end of the the thread, they said, Of course, this is Twitter. So I'm gonna say this is all the work for me now. Yeah. So which said, you know, it should come with every Twitter tweet.

Chris Tomasso 1:06:22

Yeah. And I think that anybody that says, like, you must do it this way is like, yeah, that's pretty suspect, in my opinion. With all the stuff that I said on this, about, like, what you can do, right? Like, yeah, really, you can do whatever, like people can, you know, like, like, people can find, you know, flow through the hustle. I've seen it happen. For me, hustling never really worked. So I'm kind of like preaching the anti hustle.

Rizwan Javaid 1:06:53

Yeah, no, it's it's good advice. And, but we're all on our own journey. We all on our own path. So we have to go through our own challenges. And you know, the obstacles like you said, we have those are there for us, whatever is true for you will come will you will know what's true for you. This is what worked for us, do you have a challenge that you would like to share with the guests?

Chris Tomasso 1:07:21

I mean, I think that is the challenge is the obstacle challenge. So write down you know, something that's currently blocking you from a goal that you're having, whether that's internal, something, some character flaw, you feel like you have, like, oh, I procrastinate, so I can't do bla bla bla, or something external, like this person is stopping me or I can't do this, because I don't have the education or whatever it is. And then write down what you what you think that means. About, about you, and about the situation. So what is the thing blocking you? And then what does it mean? And then write down? What do you want it to mean? What could it mean, that meant that you were actually so much closer to your goal that you find, and that's a simple just reframing. It's understanding of becoming aware of your story. Okay, and then deciding if you want to see it that way or not.

Rizwan Javaid 1:08:28

Nice. Would would you be able to show like a quick example of, you know, okay. Imposter syndrome.

Chris Tomasso 1:08:37

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, impostor syndrome. No example of this coming to mind. But I think the thing that I shared earlier about, you know, people aren't listening to me. Yeah. And what I realized, and what that means is, I'm not worth listening to. I'm not special, I have to work really hard, just like everybody else. I don't have anything interesting to say, you know, these are the things that could mean that that I thought that it meant in the past or not even that, but just like, no matter what I do, people just will hear me for whatever reason, like my what I'd have to say isn't interesting to people. So that's what it could mean. And then or what I think it means and then the reframe could be that I can use this as an opportunity to see myself to give myself the gift of seeing myself and that I actually how do I want to feel when I see myself and how it does feel is you know, I am so just immensely in awe of the person that I am And the person that I can be, and that I'm becoming that, and this is an opportunity for me to practice that. Because, and it's an opportunity for me to let go of needing other people to determine it for me. So it's an opportunity for me to choose to feel the way I want to feel about myself as a visible figure. Nice. So yeah, the breakdown is, is, what's the obstacle? What's the how do you feel? Or what is the story about it? What does it mean to you? And then the third one is, what could it mean? That would be empowering for you?

Rizwan Javaid 1:10:42

Nice. Yeah. And this is definitely with journaling will come in and, you know, yeah, you write it down and come across that in that situation, again, you write it down and use kind of those patterns. Okay. Why am I feeling this way? And, you know, maybe it takes some time for you to realize why, you know, there could be a whole journey itself. But, as, like you said, if you're, if you, if you make that intention to understand why he will come and they will, you will see it, whatever time it takes, there's no time, but you have to make that decision and begin yourself.

Chris Tomasso 1:11:26

Yeah, and bonus, if you can now find data to support in your life, the new version of what you want it to be, because we have access to like infinite data in our lives. It's just what we choose to see. So I, you know, this example, this podcast me being here is an example of that reframe, is I get to choose to see myself as the awesome person that I want to be and other people will reflect that. And this is showing you that that's true.

Rizwan Javaid 1:11:58

Your old self and your new self. I think it's that's a great area to explore. Just write down, you know, what has been holding you back. What do you what is blocking you? What are your obstacles? And then the new one, if you reframe it, yeah. You know, if you take away that, whatever is stuck. Yeah, no. And how you want to be Yeah, how do you want to show up?

Chris Tomasso 1:12:25

Right? Yeah. Without that obstacle?

Rizwan Javaid 1:12:29

Yeah. Good point. Yeah, exactly. What would you be? And once you can see, okay, this is possible, like, you know, this is all it is, is me believing that I am this? Yes. And then you're limitless, then you're Yeah, you know, anything is possible for you, then. That's pretty amazing. I mean, I'm still Yeah, I'm still amazed.

Chris Tomasso 1:12:53

So I'll say that, you know, if this stuff is interesting to you, definitely check out our podcast reveal the game of life. You check it out, reveal the game of life.com, or just, you know, on any, any podcast app, check out my twitter at Chris, underscore, Tommaso. I'm writing about this stuff all the time. Probably going to keep writing about this. But also, if the identity piece, the spiritual piece that you were talking about, we're doing an event, but the event will be, you know, already live by the time that this episode drops. But if I also recommend follow the royal shaman, she is the mentor that I have had recently, the spiritual mentor, I've been learning a lot of these things from and I I interpret them through my own perspective. But a lot of the raw understanding and insight comes from, from her she's just incredible. helps people activate abundance in their lives and live in flow and euphoria. And, you know, through like the deconditioning process, what I was mentioning, so that's exciting.

Rizwan Javaid 1:14:01

Yeah. No, we didn't touch on abundance.

Chris Tomasso 1:14:08

Well, I will say I will say about abundance. You know, you're talking about leaving, doing the things that you love. The only thing things that only you can do like your genius zone, there's the concept of like, iki guy, I believe that abundance basically follows you doing what you not just doing what you love, because like, do what you love, and the money will follow. Right? But it's it's living in your genius and doing only those things that light you up. Yeah, allows you access to more abundance. Because you're basically open up the energy to flow to you. There's other stuff about like, you need to know, you need to believe that you can receive it. You know, you need to be able to hold space to receive and make that normal. Are you a person who can receive a million dollars for the work that you do? Right? You have to like condition that in yourself. So there's that piece and then there's the P You have like, Are you a person that's worth that? You know, there's there's pieces around these abundance, you can do this exercise about what's stopping me from being abundant? Yeah. Right. And then you can follow that thread, and then say, well, what? How do I want it to be? You know, one, one thing for me was like, Oh, I don't finish things. And it's hard for me to make things on my own. And so I reframe that to Yeah, but I get to co create, I find people who want to do the things I don't want to, I don't want to do, and they love me doing the things that I do. And then in fact, the things that I do are super valuable, and that they really want me they're doing those things. So this podcast is example that my co host, basically runs the whole podcast, like she does a live recording. And then as a team, like, send it out into the world, right, and I just show up and like talk. And I love to do that. And she loves me being there doing that. So like, you can do this. It's really just letting go of limiting beliefs around abundance as well.

Rizwan Javaid 1:16:06

really energized even more now. Now, it's not just me like I somebody else as that so it's validated what I'm experiencing. And yes, yeah, so that's pretty, pretty awesome. Yeah, I'm doubling down on that. And I'm gonna go deep into that and see, you know, see what else because you know, this, we only have one life or, you know, we have this life. Yeah, that we know why, so why not, you know, make the best of it. And, you know, all those genes that we've had, we've been carrying with us forever. We have that, right to achieve those dreams. And if we get out of our own way, you know, we can we can get the achieve those goals that we want to?

Chris Tomasso 1:16:58

Yeah, and it will say for somebody who thinks like, oh, well, but what is, you know, like, it's very, it seems very selfish, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna get millions of dollars and become famous and whatnot. When you do this work, of connecting more spiritually, you recognize that your personal evolution is tied with the collective evolution? If it's not, that you're living out a story in your head, right? And so you have to set that side and say, Okay, well, but the thing is, is it's not like you sacrifice for, for spirit or for the spiritual path. In fact, the spiritual path leads you to the thing that you're really called to do, anyway. Yeah, that's really important to know. Because it's easy to think like, it's one or the other, I get to, like, personally be happy, or I get to, like, help the world. But it's both. And it's very important to know that those two things are aligned. And the more you do this, the more aligned you become, with the collective vision. Because you can't not and it's both because you are not to get too woowoo. But I've already done that. We are a piece of the whole. And so we are, you know, we are it's holographic universe. So we are the whole is, is, is contained in the part and so you are not separate from nature, you're not separate from the universe. So, you know, your personal evolution is the universe's PEDOT personal evolution. And it's all of our collective, which is why I can come on here and say this stuff. And you're like, Yeah, I'm with you. Right. And other people listening are like, I'm with you, rather than like this guy's nuts. Right. So that's what's that's what's happening. And that's why it's so important to have these conversations. That's why I'm like, Yeah, I'll talk about this all day, all night.

Rizwan Javaid 1:18:54

And I know, we're going to meet again, on the podcast again, because, you know, we can definitely talk about this and even maybe, you know, compare the, you know, the journey up until that point. Now, this is really exciting. And thank you for sharing your knowledge and being generous to come on the show and talk about this because it's a great experience for me.

Chris Tomasso 1:19:20

Like I said, I this is one of my favorite things is getting interviewed, being able to just talk, you know how long I wanted to just talk in my life and like, have it be relevant. And it wasn't at all relevant. Like I'd be like, good non duality, blah, blah,

blah. People were like, I don't care. What do you wait, what like, this is like, I'm like, Yes. Jumping up and down. Did I get to do this? So

Rizwan Javaid 1:19:45

yeah, it's like we're coming from different paths, but we're arriving in the same spot. That's pretty cool. Thank you for a great conversation. Chris. It was great speaking with you and we will He back after a short break

I hope you liked the conversation as much as I did, I had a lot of fun connecting with Chris and talking about, you know, personal development and self awareness and awakening part because that is a journey that I'm on. And as you can hear he's passionate about. And this is something that we can all work towards, we can all develop within us to let go of our old beliefs that haven't been helping us and bring out our true selves. So that we can put our best selves forward to, you know, enjoy life, enjoy the world, and we can be open to new opportunities and the abundance that is in this world. So I really enjoyed the conversation. And I really liked Chris's challenge for us as well. And as to share with, share it with you again, it was, you know, look at the obstacles that you're facing, and pick one. And then look at what story you're telling about that obstacle. And, you know, you can this is an opportunity for you to start writing and exam and exploring that this, this obstacle that you're facing. And then once you've that, once you understand the story that you're telling about telling yourself about this challenge, and this obstacle, you know, you can also think about what could it mean? That is, I'm also really excited about the challenge Chris shared with us. And just to repeat what the challenge was, it was no look at an obstacle that you're facing. And look at what story you're telling yourself about that obstacle. And then reframe that story in a way to empower yourself. So turning the negative thought into an empowering thought. I think you will really love this challenge. Because it gives you a way to overcome these obstacles instead of being stuck and letting those obstacles decide your how you show up and who you are, and moving that obstacle so you can bring your true self forward. So hope you enjoy it, and let me know how it goes. I will definitely ask Chris to come back. And so if you liked this episode, please subscribe and share it till next time stay strong.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai